There are now 155 people on the HUB (Antioch’s Online Community). It’s just getting started… make sure you’re signed up and have set up your personal profile!!
It’s amazing to me how online peering or networking quickly and easily ties groups, people and churches together with data and personal information!!
I’m currently reading through Wikinomics and am excited about the possibilities of collaboration and creativity in the church. Why shouldn’t the church be out on the front edge of technology??
That’s great but it shouldn’t be about numbers. That was just my initial reaction.
Ha that’s a funny response. It’s not about numbers–it’s about making an impact quickly so that it takes off and becomes a community. I don’t think Ken meant it in the way you took it.
I agree! It’s important that we DO get a lot of people signed on early and excited about the Hub in order for it to work. If we don’t, it won’t work. So more power to tons of people and lots of numbers!!!
Yeah, it is about numbers…How much fun would you have at a party where only 3 people showed up? Now think about a party with 50 or 100 of your friends. Come on now, there’s a lot to do with numbers. So, let’s all jump in and have a little fun!
Bring on the numbers! Let’s see how many we can get! Invite everyone!
I don’t mean to be a party pooper but I also don’t know if I agree.
In my experience I’ve rarely found that bigger = better with the church. Usually it’s the opposite.
Smaller church communities are often more authentic and personal.
I find the comment “yeah, it is about numbers” horribly depressing.
It seems like “155” is a departure from the intentions for an authentic “be the church” mentality that was prevailant when the church was started. With as much talk about church theory that goes on at Antioch, I’m just surprised to see this.
I know your intentions are good but some of these responses are a little off the mark. I’d rather have 3 authentic and loving Christians than 50 or 100 “fun” people.
I’m not against technology and cutting edge. But when I need community and connectedness, I never got a warm hug or an understanding smile from a computer.
It’s interesting to me to see all the emotional “buttons” that have been hit by the comments on the blog. Looking over the comments, I think that the people commenting on the numbers aspect missed what Ken was blogging about all together. I think the numbers discussion is a valid one, but a tangent from the topic of a community hub.
Ken’s talking about getting people who are already a part of Antioch interacting on the hub which is sort of a “my space” type of deal. It’s a fun and easy way for groups to communicate what’s going on, for people to interact through email and chatting, and for all types of people (even those who may be a little more shy in group settings) to put themselves out there and communicate something about themselves that they are excited for other people to know and hopefully connect with.
It’s a great way of eliminating the “I never know what’s going on at my church” or the “I never get a chance to meet new people because…” issues that people sometimes experience. The hub is a great way of learning about ways to be involved, learning about people one may want to look for at church so they can introduce themselves. It’s a way of helping people move from just attending Antioch to a place where there is knowledge and input about what is going on at church and where there is knowledge and interaction with ministry groups and other people in the body.
The hub is the best idea I have ever seen in all of my church going experience (which is quite a lot) for communicating with people, providing opportunities for people to get involved and for bridging the gap of ackwardness in fuguring out “who is who?” and “what could I do to encrourage so and so?” or “what makes him tick?” or “How come I never know about those meetings until after the fact?”
It is better than email alone and more convenient than phone calling because people can do it when it fits with their day and when you go on the hub you are more likely to touch more people than you would by merely checking your in box.
I just think it’s really great! It will only get better the more people get involved and start having fun with it. It is potentially an amazing tool for helping ministries and encouraging individuals in the body.
And, if you use it, you just might find yourself getting more warm hugs and understanding smiles when you do see your friends. ;) (wink, wink).
I think the hub is a fantastic idea. I also don’t think it should be the only or even primary way of contacting people. My parents don’t have the internet, so hopefully they wouldn’t be left out. But I doubt that would happen.
People are pretty friendly at Antioch. Hopefully that won’t change as the internet is more relied on. In my experience, all this technology that is supposed to bring people together, almost ends up making us more antisocial than ever. Statistically, Americans are some of the most lonely people in the world, and we also have the most online social networks.
But yea, I think it’s a good idea and a good way to know what’s going on at the church :)
About the numbers thing: Yeah, it’s definitely NOT about numbers. The word “megachurch” sends chills down my spine. Even “big church” makes me nervous ;)
Warm hugs are awesome! :)
Wow! Five days of skipping Ken’s blog and look what I missed! Actually the first thing that comes to my mind is what a blessing it is to have so many passionate people at Antioch. I’m encouraged at the thought of all that passion being channeled to get out there and change the world.
Reading all this….I have to wonder if the original commenter is regretting his/her comment. I imagine they see by now the difference between Ken’s desire for high #s at Antioch verses high #s on the hub. I only say this because I have a history of popping off with comments I later regret (the power of the tongue…). I hope anyone in question would talk to Ken personally about his vision for Antioch and how size fits into his plan. Does he consider it? In my opinion, how could he not to some extent? However…I think it’s overwhelmingly clear after yesterday’s sermon where Ken’s heart/thoughts dwell. Anyone who missed it should listen online and then you’ll surely know what Ken’s all about.
It can be intimidating breaking into “hubs”, “blogs”, “itunes”, “mp3”, “email”, “googling”, etc for many. That’s okay. It’s fun to see some (even my 75 year-old parents) jump into it and feel stimulated by learning something new. For the others…thank goodness we still have greeters/inviters/bulletins/announcements/small groups/etc to make them all feel warmly welcomed and connected.
I’m glad we have a platform to express opinions and all learn from each other!
No, I don’t regret them. I’m glad I got such a strong reaction! :)
I think it’s sooo healthy for a church to discuss stuff like this. If every single comment for these blog posts is “yay that’s awesome!” then what does that do for you?
I know Antioch isn’t all about numbers, and something about that post still did bug me. I would just hate to see Antioch become “about numbers” and quantity over quality, so I think it at least needs to be talked about. What does it hurt to discuss things? Would anyone really get their feelings hurt by talking about it? I loved reading everyone’s responses since mine, and it looks like we have a varied range of thoughts on the subject.
I REALLY disagree with the “yea it is about numbers” comment. But thankfully, I think that people who believe it’s all about numbers are in a minority at our church.
I’ve been going to Antioch forever and I know that the intentions of the church are nothing short of amazing! But I believe that sometimes a discussion and debate are more useful than another “yay that’s awesome!” type comment.
Btw, I did hear the sermon and loved it. I love an outward focused church… Loving others is what we are called to do more than anything else.
I love Antioch, and I don’t think most people here want to see a huge impersonal church any more than I do.
I left the “it is about numbers” comment —
Here is my thought: We shouldn’t pre-determine that a church should be big; and, likewise, we shouldn’t pre-determine that a church should be small. It is God’s decision how big a church should and will be.
What frustrates me is that, from my experience, those who don’t want numbers seem to pre-determine that a church should be small and sometimes begin being unfriendly or unhospitable or critical in order to keep it the way “they” like it.
Numbers are a blessing in many ways, and it seems strange to always criticize it.
There is just so much more to the issue of numbers…I think of so many places in scripture that talk about numbers. Numbers typically are a good thing. “Be fruitful and multiply”, “go and make disciples”, etc. So many of the blessings have to do with quantity. There are times in scripture when God said not to count, but take a look through the O.T.–they did a whole lot of counting and the number keeping was often a way of showing God’s blessing on those who follow Him.
We just need to be really careful about the knee-jerk reaction to big churches. Big is a result of growth, and hopefully healthy growth like we see at Antioch. The more people get on fire for Chirst the more of a difference we are going to make in this world.
It seems selfish and shortsighted to scorn numbers so long as it’s growth via changed lives and people who are selling out for God.
All of these comments got me thinking about my own experience in regards to church size and connectedness. I found the following rather interesting:
I grew up in a 150-person church…I knew about 120 people.
In college I attended a 10,000-person church…I knew about 120 people.
I briefly attended a 15-person home church…I knew 15 people.
I was on staff at a 600-person church…I knew about 150 people.
It was interesting to me to realize that I have a capacity for knowing about the same number of people. Though I continued to meet more people, life circumstances took friends away at a rate just a little less than that of new friends made.
All that to say, for me, connectedness really had nothing to do with the size of the church I attended. It had everything to do with my attitude and choices–my commitment to being involved.
The percentages change, which can give a sense of not knowing many folks or feeling like I know everyone, but looking at the numbers, it’s clear that I AM THE LIMITING FACTOR–not the size of the community/congregation.
For what it’s worth…I just found it very interesting. I had never thought through my experience in this way before today.
I guess it really drives home the point that I have the choice to make my church experience what I want it to be. Connectedness and community are factors that rest on MY shoulders.
I’m glad the original person started this discussion, it’s a good one!
The last comment was a good thought. I’m wondering how well you can really know 150 people? :)
It should NOT be ABOUT numbers, but numbers in and of themselves aren’t a bad thing, but I think that big numbers can make a church feel cold and impersonable. How many churches have you been to where you can go, sit through the service, and leave without being approached by anyone? In my experience, this just happens so much more in larger churches. I don’t know about you guys, but I like feeling that people are glad to see me and to feel that sense of “community”. In bigger churches I feel that people don’t care if I came or not. Maybe that’s a selfish feeling but I think church should have a strong sense of community, almost like a second family.
God doesn’t need our numbers, he won’t think any higher of us. Only humans measure things like that.
What did Jesus prefer? The megacharity of the rich? Or the pennies from the widow? Time and time again he used very few to do a LOT.
What did Mother Teressa say? “We can do no great things, only small things with great love.” (or something like that)
Any of you who believe we NEED numbers are limiting God. I’ve seen smaller churches be FAR more effective than larger churches. Wouldn’t God prefer a smaller group giving all of what they have to a massive church only giving 5-10% of what they take in to the poor?
I believe that if we ever have to sacrifice hugs and a personal and relational feel to our church body in order for growth and numbers then we need to rethink our priorities.
Real authentic love and real authentic relationships should be our goal. Who are we forgetting to love today?
In my previous comment I merely wanted numbers on the Hub. I was getting excited for the online community and did not discount the importance of true-authentic-inclusive community inside of Antioch and outside the Hub. (Including hugs, smiles, relationship, greeting etc)
I love all the comments. Everyone had legit points to make and I appreciate the diversity. Rock on folks.
I’ve been following this discussion and it’s funny that everyone involved has a certain perspective and that’s healthy!! Obviously everyone cares…
A couple of my own thoughts:
If we’re going to put time and energy into having an online hub, it makes sense that we do it well and have a lot of participation. It doesn’t take away from the other church community events, but whatever the church decides to do we should seek to do well.
Secondly, one of the last comments made was “Real authentic love and real authentic relationships should be our goal.” This person seems to want the church to remain small. The problem, however, is that “Real authentic love and real authentic relationships” are attractive and begin to draw other people. EVERYONE is hungry for community and authentic relationships! Churches grow when there is vital community. Good small churches become bigger churches because people find them meaningful.
There’s no getting away from that. Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God made it grow. It is GOD that makes churches grow and we need to be careful that we don’t turn our noses at growth if God is blessing the church or criticize weary pastors and staff when they are doing their best to meet the needs of an ever growing congregation.
The book of ACTS talks about numberical growth unashamedly. We should be able to do the same so long as our motives are pure and we remain faithful to the message of Christ.
(And if someone doubts the motives of the church leaders then they should probably be at another church).
Churches, like families, continue to grow and change in a dynamic way. Cute little kids get older and eventually have children of their own etc. We can’t find a “snapshot” that we like and try to keep it there. Likewise, we should let God lead and hold loosely our own wants, likes, emotions and “snapshots” because it is His church – not ours. He may want it big or he may want it small, but it is HE that gets to decide the question about numbers.
Predetermining what is better (big or small) is setting boundaries on God. The worth of the women’s actions in giving her last penny is that she was surrendered and humble. She gave all her power away and put her trust in God.
That humility and that surrender is what we should commit to God. Not that we will purposely try to stay small or the we will purposely try to be big.
Again, God leads and we follow. We don’t get to prejudge the outcome or the destination – no matter what our feelings or preferences are.
God has put it on my heart to apologize to the original commenter. I have thought about it and feel I was judgemental. Please forgive me. It’s been a while now and you may never read this but nevertheless I want to ask.
Oh wow, for some reason I remembered this just now and decided to see if there had been any more comments. I’m the original poster. I guess I should apologize too. I didn’t mean for it to become such a debate. But it was a good one in retrospect =)
Rock on folks!